Richard Morris talks Calories!

July 19, 2019

Daisy’s latest extraordinary man, Richard, returns to the podcast to talk calories! This is the first in a three-part mini series where I asked one question to three guests: “Do you think people with weight to lose need to consider calories if they are experiencing a long plateau when eating a ketogenic diet?”

Richard is a 53 year old software developer and technical speaker who built financial systems to expose risk on Wall Street and has worked on systems from industrial robots to payroll. At 38, he was the public-facing chief executive of a major software component company when he discovered he had type 2 diabetes. At 40 he retired, to devote his time into learning about type 2 diabetes and reversed his own with the ketogenic diet 5 years ago.

With Carl Franklin he founded the 2 Keto Dudes podcast (over 250,000 monthly downloads), and the international Ketofest event to help popularize the intervention as a treatment for type 2 diabetes. 

Last year Richard went back to school to study Biochemistry, and he is currently producing videos debunking bad science journalism.

Other Episodes from Richard


Richard’s blog easylocarb.com

Twitter @khiron

Instagram @easylocarb

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Ask Dr Boz – Part 4

July 12, 2019

Daisy’s latest extraordinary woman, Annette, comes back to finish what we failed to really get started on last week – an episode of the ever-popular ‘Ask Dr Boz’!

If you haven’t already listened to Annette’s story, check out episodes 46 and 47 where she shares her own story which we have an update to at the beginning of this week’s episode.

Based in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, Annette Bosworth, MD is an Internal Medicine physician with over 19 years of experience helping patients overcome long-term, chronic conditions through lifestyle adjustment, preventive medicine, and other therapeutic paths. She’s been mentioned in media outlets ranging from CNN, Time, US News & World Report, to Fox News.

In addition to medicine, she loves speaking at town halls, jails, churches and universities. From politics to mission work, she lets her faith lead her to the next chapter of life-always looking for teachable moments. Along with her husband, she savors the adventure of raising three energetic, fast-growing sons through debate, wrestling, music, and theater. She fights for the underdog and encourages patients with chronic health problems to “Fight it ANYWAY YOU CAN. Ketones for Life.”

Glucose/Ketone Ratio

Annette talks a lot about the glucose/ketone ratio (or GKI). Here are a couple of tables to make it easier to see which range you are in. If your BG readings are in mmol/L just divide BG by BK and you will get a single digit number as in the GKI column in the table below – just forgot the ratio bit! So just read the digit on the left – 4, 2, 1, etc.

As an example, my current figures are falling between 1 and 2. The last measurements I took were BG 4.1 and BK 2.6. That results in 1.58 or 28.4 (x 18) in the US ratio equivalent.

The zones are general. Your results may vary. Mine do! If I want to lose weight, I need to drop below 2 (40 on US scale). My headaches are better (less frequent) at this level too.


Free eBook


Audio Book

Dr Boz Keto Food Guide






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Ask Dr Boz – Part 3

July 5, 2019

Daisy’s latest extraordinary woman, Annette, catches us up with the latest on her medical licence review as well as chatting about how ketones can benefit people with Alzheimer’s and a long old ramble chat about exogenous ketones!

If you haven’t already listened to Annette’s story, check out episodes 46 and 47 where she shares her own story which we have an update to at the beginning of this week’s episode.

Based in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, Annette Bosworth, MD is an Internal Medicine physician with over 19 years of experience helping patients overcome long-term, chronic conditions through lifestyle adjustment, preventive medicine, and other therapeutic paths. She’s been mentioned in media outlets ranging from CNN, Time, US News & World Report, to Fox News.

In addition to medicine, she loves speaking at town halls, jails, churches and universities. From politics to mission work, she lets her faith lead her to the next chapter of life-always looking for teachable moments. Along with her husband, she savors the adventure of raising three energetic, fast-growing sons through debate, wrestling, music, and theater. She fights for the underdog and encourages patients with chronic health problems to “Fight it ANYWAY YOU CAN. Ketones for Life.”


Free eBook


Audio Book

Dr Boz Keto Food Guide






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Stephen Hussey

June 28, 2019

Daisy’s latest extraordinary man, Stephen, talks about his passion – heart disease – and how important being fat adapted is for a healthy heart.

Dr. Stephen Hussey MS, DC is a Chiropractor and Functional Medicine practitioner. He attained both his Doctorate of Chiropractic and Masters in Human Nutrition and Functional Medicine from the University of Western States in Portland.

He is the author of two books on health:

The Health Evolution: Why Understanding Evolution is the Key to Vibrant Health

and The Heart: Our Most Medically Misunderstood Organ.

Dr. Hussey guides clients, or health participants as he likes to call them, from around the world back to health by using the latest research and health attaining strategies. In his down time he likes to be outdoors, playing sports, reading, writing, and spending time with his wife and their pets.


Stephen’s website Resource Your Health



YouTube channel

Stephen Porges talking about his Polyvagal Theory on YouTube.

Stephen’s Top Tip

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Glenda Carter

June 21, 2019

Daisy’s latest extraordinary woman, Glenda, talks about how she reversed her Type 2 Diabetes, came off large doses of insulin, improved her previously high blood pressure and lost a lot of weight. Oh and how she is now fit enough to run away from bears!

Glenda grew up slim until she had her appendix out when she was 13 and then started to gain weight. Her family lived below the poverty line and they ate lots of store-bought bread with margarine and white sugar on it to keep their bellies full. With 11 mouths to feed and little money, food was all you had. They rarely ate meat or veg but did have lots of coleslaw because cabbage was cheap!

Glenda continued to gain weight through nursing training and after marriage, esp after pregnancy. She tried many diets but just kept gaining weight. Her doctors put her on a low calorie program but it wasn’t sustainable – she would lose but then gain more until she reached 253 pounds at only 64 inches tall.

Glenda ended up with high blood pressure and on insulin with her Type 2 Diabetes and considered having bariatric surgery to treat her severe diabetes of 24 years. She found bariatric surgeon while wintering in Arizona and he told her to start a ketogenic diet, get off her insulin and she wouldn’t need surgery.

He was right.

Glenda is now the same weight as when she got married. She is down 115 pounds using keto and then adding Dr Fung’s fasting protocol. Despite doctors telling her that keto is unsustainable, Glenda is now into her 3rd year eating this way. She no longer has cravings and is finally happy living inside her new, smaller body. She has found the support of patient groups online to be invaluable on her journey to health and wellness.

How To Make Mayonnaise

The easiest way to make mayo is with a stick (aka immersion) blender and a narrow container just wide enough to hold the blender. Add the ingredients in the order listed below and let them settle so that you can see the separate layers of oil floating on top of your acid and egg. Put the stick blender in the container so that it sits over the egg. Keep it still while you blend for about 20 seconds and then move it up and down to thoroughly mix the rest of the oil in. Et voila!

1 egg

1 tsp Dijon Mustard

Salt & Pepper and/or any seasoning you fancy.

1 Tbsp acid – lemon juice, white wine vinegar, AVC or whatever you prefer.

1 cup light flavoured oil – light olive oil or avocado probably best choice.

This video shows how to make it. I struggle to find a light enough oil here in France so rarely make my own mayo. I find olive oil too strong but can only get the extra virgin so that doesn’t help! Some people say avocado oil doesn’t taste great but that some strong seasoning like cayenne pepper helps. Let me know what floats your boat when it comes to keto mayo.

Glenda’s Top Tip

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Jennifer Kleiman – Part 2 – Transcript

June 14, 2019

This transcript is brought to you thanks to the hard work of Dawn Michelle.

You’ve spoken a bit before about how Will cooks up all these tasty things. And I’d forgotten actually when you mentioned just now that last year at Ketofest it was just those samples that you were bringing that you hadn’t set up the company at that point. I’d completely forgotten that. I was thinking in my head that you already had it then, but how did you come to that? Was that part of the supportive process, him experimenting with making foods for you to have, is that how it all started?

Absolutely. I feel like some people would take the carnivore, purist approach and they’re like, well, I can be the healthiest by eating just meat and vegetables. And so, I’m not going to risk anything. Perhaps I’m a little bit of a risk taker in that sense because I know that I have a sweet tooth and I used to have a pretty serious food addiction that I let run my life. So, I don’t want to ever go back there. But, if I can have tasty things that I can enjoy and let my sensual pleasures, you know, really, indulgent without going nuts and getting back into food addiction, then doesn’t that enrich my life? 

Do I need to be a purist in aesthetic and deny myself pleasures for no reason? I don’t think I do. So there are some healthy ways that I found to add tasty things back into my life besides not saying that the meat and vegetables is not tasty, but I really like a good Keto ice cream if I can enjoy a good Keto ice cream without messing up my health. So, for instance, Halo Top, you’ve tried it, right?

I have never tried Halo Top, actually. The only ice cream that I’ve tried in the states is Rebel ice cream at Ketofest last year. I’ve never tried Halo Top. I gather it’s got some not-so-great ingredients in it.

It does have some not-so-great ingredients in it. Now, the founder of Halo top was actually a Redditor, participant on the Keto sub-Reddit. So, I felt like I personally chatted with him on there. So, I did try it back in 2016 and sure, some of the ingredients were sketchy and the ice cream wasn’t a hundred percent great. Now I understand it wasn’t like a ton of sugar, a little bit of sugar, but it wasn’t awesome. 

And so, there were some things that, I was curious about, sweeteners that I felt did not have any sort of negative health impact. Actually, this was a problem because as a part of diabetes and monitoring my blood glucose. I could see that a lot of the supposedly okay sweeteners out there that weren’t counting as sugar, were actually terrible for me. These people are lying. Sorbitol, maltitol, mannitol, isomaltitol, isomalto-oligosaccharides, all these things listed under the sugar alcohols category. Most of them, I could see spike my blood glucose. Erythritol was okay, erythritol was fine.

That seems to be one of the universally accepted by most people not to give them digestive issues and things like that as a one that’s available to most people. Most people seem to get on okay with erythritol, don’t they?

Yeah. Yeah. I think erythritol is okay, and the taste is pretty good. I mean, it’s not exactly sugar and it doesn’t cook like sugar.

No. That’s the problem with it. And a lot of people don’t like the cooling effect it has on everything. I find that in some things you make, you don’t get that cooling effect. And I actually don’t mind it that much, but I know that’s a complaint that a lot of people have with it.

Well, it’s okay.

Exactly, it’s okay.

And then sucralose, Splenda, aspartame, saccharin, all these chemicals, I researched them, and you know, there’s nothing saying that they literally cause cancer. Okay, there is a little bit, but not much. But there are plenty of research showing that aspartame is linked to migraines. Sucralose and saccharin are linked to leaky gut, intestinal irritable bowel disease. If you use them on a regular basis, then your chances of developing these conditions seem to go up, or at least, there’s lots of research showing that they’re linked. And then even petri dish research showing that they do cause the epithelial lining cells to develop gaps, which is literally leaky gut disease. So, I don’t want any part of those. I mean occasionally a little bit, whatever, it’s not going to kill you, but still not healthy.

That’s the thing. It comes down to what you just said is the regular use thing, isn’t it?

Yeah. I think no one’s going to die from having the occasional bit, but regular use, daily use, definitely have been shown in some research. Not a lot of research, but some research to be problematic. And then I’m not really a big fan of the taste of stevia.

No, me neither.

I like monkfruit. Have you tried that?

I haven’t. I’ve never tried it. No, it’s not something I can get here.

Oh dear. Well, I like monk fruit. It’s not exactly the taste of sugar, but it has a nice kind of clean sweetness to it, which, I find pleasant. It’s not a sugar, you can’t cook with it.

That’s often the problem isn’t it? You actually, for most things you’re making, unless you’re sweetening something like coffee, for example, you need that bulk. You need the actual mass of sugar, in inverted commas, in whatever you’re making. That plays a part every bit as much as the sweet flavor does, doesn’t it?

Well, in fact, I mentioned that I was corresponding with the Halo Top founder, Justin Wolverton, on Reddit and I was asking him, why do you put sugar in your Keto ice cream? It seems to defeat the purpose, right? He’s like, well, originally, I started with a very Keto purist sort of a recipe. And he’s driving around with his little sample pints to different places and trying to find a place that would manufacturer the ice cream for him. And the problem was that his mix would freeze in the lines, which I think as you know, like you try making a Keto ice cream with erythritol or swerve or what have you, and you put it in the freezer, and it freezes solid as a rock. You know, if you have any leftovers after you’ve made your batch. Sugar alcohols freeze solid. And he said the property of sugar that is essential for the ice cream is that it lowers the freezing point so that it stays soft in the lines of the manufacturing equipment but also then in the freezer. So, you don’t want to have to have a pint of ice cream that you pull out of the freezer and have to sit on the counter for 20 minutes.

Although, I have to say this is one of my slight bugbears with people who go on about ice cream freezing solid, which I have to say it is a thing with erythritol. It freezes really solid. But, you can take it out and leave it in the fridge for half an hour and then by the time you come to eat, it softened up a bit. But, people talk about this being completely scoopable from the freezer. Well, my favorite ice cream has always been Haagen-Dazs. That was my Achilles heel. That was the ice cream that I always used to have. Now, that is not scoopable straight out of the freezer. I’m not sure freezer is on a low, or shall we say high, I suppose setting. It comes out solid. You watch the adverts for Haagen-Dazs and even on a lot of the containers they recommend you have to take out and you have to leave it sitting on the counter for five to 10 minutes before it becomes that sort of perfect scoopable texture. So you know, it isn’t just a Keto ice cream thing. Although I have to say that I’ve been making a vanilla chocolate chip ice cream with allulose. You’ll be pleased to hear it was the very allulose you brought to Denver for me.


And, I have to say, you’re absolutely right. It is perfectly scoopable straight out the freezer and it’s very delicious. I have been enjoying it every day since ice cream season.

I think that now that I’ve gotten into the business, there’s just a number of properties of sugar and also allulose that I’ve come to appreciate. Lower freezing point, crystallizing, are just the tip of the iceberg really. Providing that crystalline structure, for instance. We’re trying to make fudge. The consistency of fudge is hugely important. Well, forget trying to do that with erythritol. It’ll come out in sort of icy shards.

It crystallizes, doesn’t it?

It does. And you know, you’re not going to do it with sucralose. That would be disgusting. Or stevia or anything like that. But if we can crack allulose fudge. We’re going to trial a couple of things at Ketofest this summer. We have actually started making a nut bars using allulose caramel. And allulose caramel, wow, it’s so good. And it provides this nice kind of stickiness that, makes these nut bars just delightful. I haven’t quite figured out how to package them to be honest. But, right now we’re just using craft paper bags and a little parchment paper and I’m distributing them at our local farmer’s market and people are just mad for them.

That sounds delicious. How did you end up at allulose? You started saying there was this progression of different sweeteners that you tried. How did you end up at allulose because it wasn’t, and it’s become a bit more known now, but presumably, I mean, when you first stumbled across it, you must’ve almost stumbled across it? How did you find out about it in the first place?

It’s sort of my hobby to, become on top of the literature of, sweeteners and their health impacts because I wanted to know for sure. Because I used to drink sweetened diet sodas, instead of water all the time. Diet Coke, Fresca all these different things. And I wanted to know what health impact they had. And a lot of people said, you know, if you follow the science that there is no problem, really. Its people who say these chemicals are bad for you, they’re just chemo-phobes but there’s no solid science behind it. I’m like, well, you know, I’m not sure. 

I tried it actually a couple of years ago, I went on a sweetener moratorium for two weeks. I am dropping all the sweeteners out of my life, zero everything, just coffee, black coffee, water, tea. But nothing that has any sweeteners. And I was checking my blood glucose the whole time and it had a huge impact. I didn’t realize, I mean, not huge, maybe five to 10 points on my baseline blood glucose. And it dropped. And I lost weight. So clearly these sweeteners were having impact on me and I didn’t realize it. Even though they’re supposedly zero calorie and supposedly safe.

It’s not all about the calories though. That’s where it comes down to, isn’t it? Or even sometimes the immediate impact on blood sugar, it just goes to show that all these other things that they can potentially have this ripple effect that could end up causing you to gain weight or not lose weight or whatever it is. That’s the issue you’re dealing with.

Absolutely. There’s a lot of other issues and it’s not just blood glucose or insulin. Also, they talk about cephalic phase insulin response. Well, if something just tastes sweet or you’re thinking about something sweet, you’re going to get that cephalic phase insulin response, for sure.

The other thing I find is that it stimulates appetite too.

Absolutely. After I did this two-week sweetener moratorium, I talked about it on my Facebook page and some of my friends were like, you know, that’s very curious. And I’m like, how about you all, do two more weeks with me and I’ll go two weeks more. Once I got past the first 10 days, the first 10 days were rough. I was super addicted. Daisy, I was like struggling. I was thinking, oh God, I really want MiO in my water, or I really want Diet Coke. And I was biting my nails. I was gritting my teeth, but it got easier. And after those first two weeks, I was like, I’ll go another two weeks. 

So, I got a bunch of friends to try it as well, and they were also type two diabetics. So, they gave it a go and two of them couldn’t do it. They dropped out right away. They were like, no, I love my Diet Coke, can’t give it up. One of them dropped out after three days because she got dehydrated. She realized that without the stimulus of the sweetness driving her to drink, she wasn’t drinking, and she got dehydrated and her electrolytes are messed up. So, she had to go back to it. So it wasn’t that she was addicted, but it was more of an electro-chemical imbalance that her body had just become adjusted to, I guess. And then the rest of them stuck through the whole two weeks. And what they found, about half of them found, that it did drop their baseline blood glucose by 5-10 points. And half of them found that it had no impact except to deprive their life of the pleasure of diet soda drinks. So, they went right back to it. 

So, I think it’s very individual. I think some people are going to see a reaction if they cut the sweeteners out. But I think it depends on the sweetener too. So, I started doing more research back to allulose. I’m like, well, obviously there’s more to the sweetener thing than I thought. And I started learning about all the different kinds of sweeteners and high intensity sweeteners versus bulk sweeteners, sugar alcohols, different sugars. And, I did find this new sweetener, well not new, allulose. Allulose is a rare sugar. It’s been around. It occurs in nature and so they’ve been doing research on it for decades and interestingly in 2015, they figured out a way to produce it commercially using an enzymatic process. So now it’s similar to erythritol. Erythritol is produced from cornstarch. They take cornstarch and they do a series of chemical reactions and you get erythritol.

Sometimes it comes from birch bark as well. Is that right?

If you buy it commercially, do you honestly think that there are giant factories out there stripping birch trees of their bark?

I don’t think there are giant factories, no. I have noticed that the occasional product does say it comes from birch as opposed to the usual. The usual is cornstarch, isn’t it?

Yes. I don’t know if anybody is actually out there stripping birch trees of bark, Daisy.

No, I mean it kind of seems a bit of a laborious and not very helpful for the birch trees.

Cornstarch I think is where 99% of the stuff comes from. And I don’t know about the other 1%.

There are some very naked birch trees somewhere. That’s the 1%.

The erythritol birch orchards in southern France I hear are beautiful this time of year. So allulose is found naturally in figs and jackfruit and raisins, maple syrup. And I suppose, prior to this discovery, the way they made it was by squeezing figs or jackfruit and then refining from there. But now they have discovered a way to make it from corn syrup. So, using corn syrup in a series of fermentations and refining and whatnot. So now it’s commercially available and the research on it, unlike the research on sucralose, the research on sucralose is all about does it really cause intestinal bowel disease, or does it just make the symptoms worse if you already had it? It’s all bad, there’s nothing good. 

But the research on allulose is crazy good. We’ll see it being used in a much larger way over the population. Maybe some people will end up having negative reactions. But right now, the research is on people and also dogs, rats, tapeworms, planaria. The research is 100% positive. It increases insulin sensitivity. It decreases postprandial blood glucose response. It helps people lose weight. It helps people with their hepatic fatty liver deposits. It seems to be a health boon in almost every way. It increases GLP-1 secretion, one of the talks at low-carb Denver got into the incretin hormones. And so GLP-1 secretion is good, it’s sort of a counter hormone to insulin. The important thing is it tastes just like sugar. I mean almost, its 70% as sweet as sugar. But the chemical properties that it has in terms of crystallization and freezing point and bulk and various other, mouthfeel and and aftertaste are very similar to sugar. The fact that it’s less sweet is a problem.

I actually quite like the fact that it’s not as sweet as sugar. So this ice cream recipe that I been playing around with over the last few days is actually just an adaptation of a Mary Berry recipe. I’ve made a few tweaks, but I’ve pretty well just subbed out the sugar for allulose at the same amount. So that has effectively made it 70% as sweet. It’s not as sweet as the original recipe. And actually, less so because I changed some of the quantity ratios so effectively it was even less than that. But that I think is a good thing for most people, especially people who’ve been on Keto for a little while. Their sensitivity to sweet increases quite a lot. 

So actually, having something that’s a bit less sweet, 70% is quite a nice sort of drop in sweetness. Isn’t it? I think anyway that’s what I find. I find the problem with quite a lot of Keto products, especially things like cookies. I found the ones I’ve tasted anyway are so ridiculously sweet. They’re too, too sweet. You want to drop that sweetness down because when things are too sweet, you can’t actually taste the flavors of the ice cream or the cookie or whatever it is you’re eating. Can you?

Yeah, I agree. I feel like I’ve just had a mouthful of sugar alcohol and that’s pretty good. Yeah, it’s interesting. I’ve been doing a lot of direct sales every weekend. I’m going to the local farmer’s market with Will and we’re giving away samples and trying different recipes and seeing how people like things. And these are people that are farmer’s market patrons, so most of them are not Keto, although I’ve been very happy to meet some Keto people there that are just delighted to meet other Keto people. We could do the secret Keto handshake. And they buy lots of my stuff and they love it, which is great. But just the general populace, I pitch this as healthy, all natural, mostly organic, vegan and soy free, dairy free, gluten free, etc. So, it appeals to a lot of the general populous there that go to the farmer’s market and they are not used to having something that’s natural and sugar free. And so, when I say that they’re a little suspicious, they’re like, so is this going to tastes like crap?

Yeah. Cause that’s the usual payoff, isn’t it? That’s what usually happens. It ticks all these boxes. It’s really good for you, it’s good for the environment, it’s good for all this, but it tastes like pants.

And that’s what they expect, to taste like pants. And then their eyes light up like, oh, this is really good. Is it really, is it really sugar free? There’s gotta be sugar in it. I’m like, no, it’s really sugar-free. So, it’s great having that feedback. I’ll ask them for like their critique, would you change anything? Well actually, I really liked it. It’s not as sweet as I was expecting. I was expecting it to be really sweet, but it’s not, and I really like that. So, I think even the average American consumer, at least the people that attend the farmer’s market are wanting things that assault their taste buds at a lower intensity.

That’s true actually. I think, yeah, a lot of it is just a case of that’s what’s available. I have a friend I cook for quite a lot. One of the things he really likes about the desserts that I make, that they are less sweet. It’s something he always comments on. He said, you know, I really enjoy the things you make because they’re not overly sweet. I can taste the chocolate, I can taste the coconut, I can taste, the flavors that are in it. And he really likes and comments on the fact that it’s not as sweet as something he’d buy it Tesco’s or whatever. So, I think you’re right. I think actually that most people wouldn’t complain about things being less sweet in general.

I think the only problem with allulose from my perspective, well it’s expensive. But also, people do have, depending on their gut biome and the amount of allulose they eat, some people do seem to have, I’ve experienced this myself, just literally explode. Something you mentioned, erythritol is pretty well tolerated. Some people have a reaction to erythritol.

I think that’s true, actually. And I think if you haven’t had any for a while and you go back to it, that happened to me with the first batch of ice cream that I made. I hadn’t really had any sweetener like that for a while. And I don’t know whether it was that or whether it was something else I ate, but I didn’t feel at all well. Actually, I was sick, and I wasn’t well at all, but have been fine with it since. 

I’m the kind of person that will push through it when it comes to ice cream, I’m going to test it the next day. I’m not going to believe that that ice cream made me out. I’m gonna try it out the next day. If maybe I’m ill three days in a row after eating the ice cream, then I might decide to drop it, but when it comes to ice cream, I’m going to keep pushing through and it’s been fine since you’ll be, you’ll be pleased to know. In fact, I had it for breakfast this morning. That’s the only problem with me when I make things like that, and I can’t make them too often because I do tend to overeat them a little bit. But yes, I can certainly attest it that it works very well in ice cream, incredibly well actually, at least in the recipe that I made.

Excellent. I’m really looking forward to Carrie Brown coming out with allulose ice cream recipes. I know she’s been experimenting.

Yes, she’s right on the brink of, I don’t know what it’s going to be. I don’t know whether it’s going to be a general adaptation that you can use in all her existing recipes or whether it’ll be a whole new bunch of recipes where it’s different for each flavor. I’m not sure yet, but apparently, yes, she’s right on the brink of, of having perfected. I know when she first tried just subbing the allulose for the xylitol in it, it didn’t work. She said it tasted okay. It was the texture. She said it was kind of crumbly, an odd sort of texture. And you know what a perfectionist is. So, she’s not going to put it out there until it’s right. But I know she’s been working very hard on it because a lot of people don’t like using xylitol. So, she’s been working very hard on allulose alternatives.

Yay! I can’t wait. Will makes allulose ice cream for us and he has sometimes really just hit the money, where it tastes to me just as good as Haagen Dazs. But his flavors are vanilla or chocolate. And, Carrie’s are Baskin Robbins, Haagen Dazs and Ben and Jerry’s, all one excellent chef woman.

Incredible range of flavors. I’m very simple with mine as well. I usually start with vanilla, but I did put some chocolate chips in. It’s very delicious. I will send you the recipe when I’ve perfected it. I will share it with everyone. Like I say, it’s not really my recipe at all. It’s Mary Berry’s recipe that I have Ketofied, but it is delicious, and it absolutely stands up to Haagen Dazs, and as Haagen Dazs connoisseur, I think that tells you something. We need to know where to find you and all your delicious candy. And presumably, I know you send your candy out mail order, presumably these other products that you’ve teased us with are not at that stage yet by the sounds of it.

I invite everybody to hit me up on Facebook either, be my personal Facebook buddy or our company Facebook page is Moons Grove Farms. We’re also on Instagram and I have a website, it’s moonsgrovefarms.com. We’re on Amazon, Etsy, and that’s it. Well no, there are a few stores that are stocking us, but nothing nationwide yet, although I have dreams.

What is only been a year, less than a year.

Much less than a year because after Ketofest I got my butt in gear and started putting the company together. But wow, there’s a lot of work involved, and it took me awhile to get everything all in order. I don’t know if we have time for a story about Amazon.

Well I was just gonna ask you actually, because I know you had some hideous problems with Amazon, didn’t you?

I did. Now 50% of all online commerce goes through Amazon. So, I knew that if I’m going to sell anything online, we gotta be on Amazon.

Yeah. You’ve got to be in bed with them, really haven’t you if you want your products out there on a big scale.

So, I went through all the proper steps. I got FDA approval for my products. We have a commercial kitchen, we have packaging and nutrition facts labels and professional photographs, the whole thing. An Amazon representative helped me set up and everything was good. We flipped the switch, we started selling. The first couple of days people love this stuff. We’re getting five-star reviews. And then my account’s been suspended, and it was right before Thanksgiving. I’m like, but there’s people that need my candy for their Christmas presents and stuff.

That is the worst possible quarter, isn’t it? That’s the quarter that everyone goes on about. That’s when you make all your money.

So, they say. And my Amazon representative is like, well, I don’t see what’s wrong. I’m sure it will be resolved really quickly. I’m like, okay, I love Amazon. You guys are the best. You will fix it. Okay. So, a few days go by and I get no notice. Well, we’ve permanently suspended your account because of extra high cancellation rates. I’m like, I haven’t had any cancellations. So how could it be an extra high cancellation rate because my cancellation rate is zero. And the sales rep said oh, they must’ve made a mistake. I’m sure they’ll clear up. 

Another week goes by and nothing. And then he said I’ll talk to my boss. And the boss tried talking to the boss, the other department that did the suspensions and the boss was like, I don’t know, they won’t return my email. So, they went back and forth another couple of weeks and now it’s Christmas. Well, this is all messed up. And then the guy he’s like, well, I’m sorry, I don’t know what to say. So, I hired a lawyer. In fact, I read a story. It was in the New York Times about how Amazon was doing wrong to sellers, which still continues, and how sellers have had to resort to different means to try and get Amazon to treat them right. And one of the people in the story was a lawyer in Atlanta who has fought with Amazon on a number of occasions. So, I contacted him, and he took me on and he happened to have a direct connection to Jeff Bezos. So, he wrote Jeff Bezos, and it took a few weeks to get a response, and we never got a direct response from Jeff B. But I got a call from the Amazon suspension department. They are like, hi, Jeff Bezos asked us to look into your case and you’re un-suspended. Good luck selling on Amazon. So, I don’t know what I did wrong, if anything.

So, no explanation and it took that kind of wrangling to get switched back on.

Yup. About three months and a lawyer and Jeff Bezos’s personal intervention.

And you miss that fourth quarter of sales.

Totally. So, I don’t know. But I’m happy to be on Amazon, so, thank you Jeff, I guess.

Thumbs up to Jeff.

It gave me a very deep appreciation of today’s economy. They got the power.

Absolutely. Yeah. That is the problem, isn’t it? There’s nothing much you can do when computer says no. So, you’re going to be at Ketofest with your candy. Well, I suppose it would be difficult. It won’t be like the local farmer’s market. You won’t be able to bring fudge.

No, you’re wrong about that. I’ve been talking with, our Ketofest organizers and, the local health department and there won’t be a problem. I am definitely bringing some new products to Ketofest. Hopefully we will have the fudge recipe down. We have a fudge recipe down. It’s just not shelf-stable. It has to be refrigerated. It’s amazingly good. You don’t have to worry about eating too much of it because it’s so rich, you have like a little square.

That sounds like a challenge. Your candied ginger, what is that supposed to be? Two servings.?

Three actually.

Well a bag easily is just one serving for me, and I can easily do two bags. You’re talking to a little bit of a greedy piggy when it comes to things like that. So, I’m not sure one little square with fudge with suffice for me.

By the way, we’ve changed how we are making the ginger and the orange, number of the peels actually, in response to getting some more experience making it and selling it. So, I think it’s much better now. And if you tasted the ginger or the orange before, I’d be really curious to get your reaction this year because I think it is loads better. Will says he is ashamed.

I think there was a difference in some that you very kindly sent me home with a huge amount of candied ginger, which I won’t embarrass myself by telling you how quick that can seem to go, but there was a difference. Some of them were a lot sort of thicker cut and juicier, I think that’s what you were saying. It’s moved more towards that. Yeah, definitely brilliant.

And they also seem to be hotter.

Which is not a problem for me. I was speaking to Karen Ogilvie and I don’t think she can eat more than one or two pieces, they’re too hot inside now. Love it. I tell you what does really temper it, what I’ve discovered if you eat, I’m just showing myself out now to be such an absolute pig. But if you eat the candied ginger, and I love it hot, I don’t mind that it absolutely sets my mouth on fire. The hotter, the better as far as I’m concerned. But if you eat it with super dark chocolate, the chocolate tempers the heat. I don’t know why there’s some kind of synergy between the two that it takes the heat out of it.

Nice. I gotta try that.

I can’t explain why it tastes very good. I mean, chocolate covered candied ginger is just delicious anyway, but for some reason it takes the heat out.

We’re working on that.

Yeah, I remember you saying that.

We’re working on incorporating the dark chocolate covered orange rinds and ginger.

Very delicious.

So, I figured out we’re going to change the packaging on the ginger. We’re going to call it nuclear ginger and put skull and crossbones and flames. So, people really understand we’re serious. This is spicy ginger.

And a lot of people like that. They like the challenge as well, don’t they, or eating hot? And funnily enough, I’m actually not the kind of person who likes, I like a bit of heat in a curry say, but I don’t like the super-hot curries. If it’s too hot for me, I can’t taste it. But when it comes to your ginger, I just love the heat in it.

I made a small child cry at the farmer’s market. We were giving out samples and the mom tastes it. She was like, oh, this is really good. She gives a sample to her kid. The kid starts crying. Oh God.

I hope you didn’t video that one.

I’m like, I’m so sorry. The four-year-old won’t come back and buy any candy from me anyways. So that’s fine. And I laugh about it now, but yeah, we’re gonna re-label that nuclear ginger. And the lime, if we continue making the lime, we’re going to call it lime jerky because we can’t make those lime peels soft and chewy. There’s just no way. We’ve tried different things. It just doesn’t work. So, it’s hard jerky-like candied lime peels. I don’t know. Some people may love the flavor. So, when I proposed that we stop making it, they’re like, “No!”. But a lot of people aren’t expecting it to be so tough and it’s really, super hard. So, I don’t know. But the nut bars are incredible, and I can’t wait to bring them to Ketofest and let people sample them there.

Oh, I cannot wait to sample them. I shall let everyone know what they taste like.

Excellent. It’ll take a while for me to wrap up and get FDA approval and do the nutrition facts labels and the packaging and get them on the website, but I’m happy to be able to take them to Ketofest and distribute them in person.

Yeah. Well something for us, Ketofesters to look forward to.

Among other things. I can’t wait. Bacon bar!

All the things.

All the things.

Yeah. Hog roast. The plaza square on the Saturday is just going to be full of all sorts of delicious things to eat.

And demos. I’m actually doing a cooking demo with Karen Ogilvie.

You are? And what have you finalized on? You’re doing muffins, aren’t you?

We’re doing muffins. Actually cupcakes. I’m not sure of the technical difference between muffins and cupcakes.

I’m not sure, icing maybe.

Icing, that’s it. So, we have muffins where we’re going to be including diced candied orange peels from Moon’s Grove Farms. Of course, if people want to make it without that, that’s fine. But then we have this lovely dark chocolate allulose fudge icing that we’re going to be swirling on top of those things. And also, we’re still tinkering with the recipe for either a sour cream lemon or sour cream lime cake with a cream cheese icing on top. Frosting, buttercream, cream cheese, something like that. Anyway, we’re playing with it right now. When I say we, I mean Will is playing with the recipe right now. And we are really excited, Karen and I, to do this cooking demo. It is going to be a lot of fun. Karen and I are actually, in theory, starting a podcast. We keep trying to make time for it. It’d be Keto book bookclub and if we can get that launched before Ketofest, I will be thrilled to, pleased as punch to hope that people have a chance to listen to it. I think a Keto book club is something whose time has come.

I do, I’m very excited about it. We’ve been talking about it, haven’t we behind the scenes for a while. You told me about it quite a while ago. And yes, I think it will be a great format. Like you say, it’s not something that’s out there already. It would be a great new podcast I think for the Keto universe.

I’m excited about it. And now that Karen’s schedule is freed up a little bit, with her son not being in school, she has less errands and running around and PTA business to do, so we’re gonna hit it pretty hard, in theory.

Perfect. I can’t wait for that. That sounds like you’ve laid down the gauntlet there. That will be nice to be telling everyone at Ketofest that it’s launching.

That’s right, Karen. Karen and I are both psyched and we both have busy lives so it’s hard to fit it in. I have no idea how you do it, Daisy. You are a super woman.

I was just going to say, yeah, obviously I know what it’s like in it seems like a huge challenge and it is very daunting when you’re starting because there’s so much to organize to launch it in the first place. That’s the thing. And there’s this other element that holds you back a little bit because you know that once you’ve started, you’ve got that commitment. If you’re doing a weekly podcast, as soon as you put the first one out, that means you’ve got to be putting one out every single week. And yes, it is a big commitment. I mean now that I do every part of it myself, I’ve worked out that each episode takes a minimum of a day and a half, probably closer to two days really, to produce the hours episode that you listened to, and all the things that go with it. So, all the social media and the show notes, everything that goes into producing and promoting that episode. Yeah, and it’s the best part of two days’ work. You’re taking on quite a lot. I mean it’s good when there are two of you, obviously you can share the load a bit and as everyone knows by now, I think, I’m a bit of a bit of a perfectionist nut job when it comes to editing. So, it probably does take me a lot longer than it does for other people.

Maybe. I’ve certainly heard some podcasts out there that clearly have not had professional editing of any sort. So, maybe a certain amount of sloppiness is acceptable.

It’s finding the balance. Yes. It’s that whole don’t let perfection be the enemy of good thing. It’s the finding the balance between the two. And I’m getting there, I’m getting to the point where I’ll leave in a lot more of the things that I used to just get so super-involved in taking out.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard bad sound on your podcast, at least to the extent that like I’ve been like irritated by it or anything.

I should hope not. I had good training. I was brought up in the Carl Franklin and Brandon Wen school of podcast editing, so very good training. Absolutely.

Very cool. I’m just delighted if we can get this podcast launched and I say if, because both Karen and I do lead busy lives and have obviously other irons in the fire. I think that terrific fun and I love reading books about Keto, as does Karen. So why not help other people?

And as does the community, I think. It will be very needed. I not sure if needed is the right word. Do we ever need anything? I think it’s a podcast that people will be very interested in and will also enjoy being involved in as well. That’s the thing with the book club, isn’t it? That the listeners can become involved in it and be part of it.

And we can have discussions about what does this part mean? Did you try this recipe from this Keto book? Is this Keto author insane? That kind of thing. It’ll be fun.

I think it’s a fantastic idea. And you know, good for the authors as well. It works in all different angles, isn’t it? Promoting their books to the community, getting feedback from the community. Everyone wins. Can’t wait for the Keto book club podcast.

Yeah. I’m psyched. Did you hear that, Karen? Let’s do it.

She’s gonna love you for this.

We’re going to have a great time together, Karen and I.

You are, absolutely. Obviously, I do my podcast on my own, but I do like the dual presenter podcasts. It’s interesting. Obviously, they have their guests on, but it’s interesting seeing that synergy between between the two hosts and often that’s entertaining in itself.

Well, I think Karen and I have different perspectives on things. So, we can inform and engage each other and hopefully our listeners.

Absolutely, can’t wait. So, we’re at that point in the show where I ask you to leave us with a top tip.

Okay, my top tip is if you have not tried intermittent fasting, try it. Trying to get more in touch with my body’s signals for when I’m actually hungry and when I actually want to eat has been an incredible change in my health and my approach to food. Divorcing myself from eating because it was expected and there’s food available. It’s time to listen to my body and say, I think that I don’t need to eat because I’m not actually hungry, and then not doing it. It has been so empowering. So, if somebody is looking to take their Keto practice to the next level, they should try it. It is almost as hard as just starting Keto in the first place, to take control. Not really change how much food I eat, but just listening to my body about when I eat it and saying this is what hunger is, this is just emotional, I want something in my mouth. It has been a real game changer for me.

Yes, I do think it does really help dial in those signals. I found the same. I’m definitely a bit of a grazer, especially when I’m at home and I know the difference, because I can be out gardening on a job all afternoon and I don’t feel the need to be eating all the time, yet when I’m at home and the fridge is there and just, oh, I’m hungry. But I’m not hungry, I know I’m not hungry, I know it’s just I want to pick, because I know there’s some cheese in the fridge or there’s some ice cream in the freezer or whatever it is. Yes, to actually go for period of time without food and to really get properly hungry. It does really help I think if you’re one of these people that struggles with head hunger versus real hunger.

You know what it is for me? I realized eating something feels vaguely productive. Like I have done something, I’ve accumulated resources for my body. So, at a kind of emotional intuitive level, it lowers my stress level a little bit because I have packed on some more resources. So, I’m not going to starve. Nothing to do with physical hunger, just emotional satisfaction because I’m not going to starve today and it has to do with maybe food insecurity or something, but it doesn’t have anything to do with physical hunger. So being able to tell myself I’m going to direct that need to do something productive into a different thing that is also satisfying. Maybe doing a little house cleaning, maybe, buying something on Amazon, doing some gardening that also satisfies that.

It’s weird how you have so much time on your hands when you don’t eat as well, don’t you? I mean, I found that a bit when I was doing my carnivore experiment. How much more time there was, and I can remember when a friend came out to eat, he obviously wasn’t eating carnivore, so I had to prepare some vegetables and things for him and it was like, blimey, this all takes so much time. My rack of lamb ribs or something, it was just a case of taking it out of the fridge, putting it in the oven, taking it out the oven, eating it. The extras that I had to do for him. But obviously it’s a whole new level when you’re fasting, you’re not eating at all. And I know that whenever I do fast, I’m not very good. I need to get a fasting routine. It’s those days when you’re not eating, it’s like, oh, this extra time on your hands when usually you’re either preparing, cooking or sitting down and eating that food. It actually takes up quite a chunk of your day, doesn’t it?

Yeah, absolutely. Or I’ll be out on a business trip with colleagues who obviously are not Keto or fasting. And it’s a good third of the day that’s spent sitting, eating, getting food, going into a restaurant, whatever it is. Even more than a third of the day. And if I say, you know, guys, I have to make up an excuse, so it doesn’t sound weird but I’m not eating with you. I’m just going to go back to my hotel room and get some work done. That gives me back so much time and I need it. Because I’ve got a lot going on in my life, Daisy. Woo. So, it works out pretty well.

Yeah. Busy women just as you were saying, you’re just going to try adding a podcast to that. Good luck finding the time.

Better time management. Of course, I cannot neglect my partners or my family or the garden or the pets or anything. So, it’s a matter of priorities.

Yeah, I have the advantage there. I just have my dogs and cats really. I don’t have to think about entertaining other humans. Now I do keep forgetting to ask people, so I will just throw it in at the end here. What your Keto looks like on an average day when you’re not fasting, obviously.

Definitely. Black coffee or sometimes with a little bit of heavy whipping cream. And about the coffee, I’m serious about coffee. I’m nuts about it. We have our own home roasting machine. We import beans from either Costa Rica or Tanzania. We got some lovely Tanzanian peaberry right now. So, we roast our own beans, grind them. We have an espresso machine.

Because the roasting is important, isn’t it? Sort of the temperature of the roasting and how long you roast it all really affects the flavor, doesn’t it?

Absolutely. So, you have different roasting profiles that change the temperature of the roast throughout the roast cycles. Fresh roasted is totally different than stuff that was roasted a week ago. If you’re buying stuff in the stores in little bags, it might’ve been roasted a month ago and wow, that’s very different. So, the fresh roasted beans changed my life. I’m fully caffeinated now, Daisy.

So, when you say its worlds apart flavor-wise, but what is that difference?

Well, it actually changes if you have coffee that’s been roasted within the past 24 hours. The notes of the coffee are more floral, more bright, has this dimension to it that goes away. A lot of the essential oils evaporate within that first 24 hours. A lot of out-gassing so, it’s less acidic after 24 hours. It’s different. The chemical composition is different.

So just like wine then really, it’s the difference between having a Beaujolais Nouveau to having something that’s been aged for however long.

That’s it. Exactly. And some people will say, some Beaujolais are too young, or they don’t have that depth of character. So, it’s not always the case that fresh roasted is better. It’s different and sometimes I really love it, but sometimes letting the roast sit for at least 24 hours to out-gas and mature a little bit. Then that first 24 hours to a week period. I think that’s where you have the richest flavor and then maybe after a week a lot more of the oils have started to either mature or evaporate a little bit. So, the flavor is less intense. 

Anyway, that’s how my day starts. Cup of fresh roasted coffee and water, tea. I have 20 different kinds of herbal teas that I love. I don’t do soft drinks with any of those nasty sweeteners. We have seltzer often; I love seltzer or other kinds of naturally sweetened things. Not naturally sweetened, naturally flavored, like little bits of lemon juice or lime juice or whatnot. And then food wise, a little left over from last night maybe for lunch if I feel like it. Or we have chickens, so eggs are pretty common for a meal, either hard-boiled or scrambled. Or I’ll make a quick frittata. 

And then dinner, Will has usually cooked some large piece of meat that we’ll slice. He just roasted a smoked brisket, nice chunk of beef brisket on hickory wood, also a rack of ribs. So, he’ll come up with something and sometimes he gets super creative and comes up with some crazy dish. He did Indian butter chicken last night with cauliflower rice and a salad and a Keto coleslaw sweetened with allulose. But some days it’s just burger, patty of ground beef with cheese and bacon, then the salad. And honestly that’s the best.

It sounds pretty handy having a live-in chef.

It really is. I highly recommend it.

So, I mean overall, as we mentioned earlier. Fairly simple really, it sounds like you’re a two meal a day as well, that that seems to be the most common pattern. I think two meals a day.

Generally. Yes. Sometimes one, sometimes none, but generally two.

And so, when you fast, do you have a regular fasting routine? You talk about intermittent fasting and for how long do you fast?

Generally, I will do food-less Mondays. Where I just hate Mondays. So, I don’t want to sully Mondays by doing anything pleasant like eating. I just want to have full, pure hatred for Mondays. So, that’s it. No food Mondays and then, generally I’ll eat, either breakfast or lunch, but not both. And then dinner. That’s it. Nothing fancy.

One of the things that is quite often leveled against fasting is that, you know, I’ve heard the argument that people just make up for it. They compensate on the days they’re eating and eat twice as much. But I found the absolute opposite actually the day after. If I fast, I tend to fast for either 24 or 36 hours. And certainly at least the first meal I have is probably half the normal size. I tend to find that I eat less on the day after I’ve fasted, not more.

I think that it kind of re-calibrates my appetite and stomach to not eating. And so, you can’t really just go right back in and have a huge meal. I’ve done five-day fasts on a number of occasions. I think for health purposes it’s great to really get that deep into autophagy. So, I think maybe once a quarter to do that, but not for weight loss purposes. Because I did find that, after five days of fasting that in the weeks afterwards that I did have a heightened appetite. So, I don’t think those longer fasts, for me anyway, helped me lose weight. But a short fast, food-less Mondays, skipping breakfast or even skipping breakfast and lunch sometimes. That doesn’t seem to move the dial for me one way or the other, it just helps. I think it keeps my system more insulin sensitive to do it occasionally. Sort of like exercising, which I should do more of. I have a treadmill desk. I work from home; I use the treadmill desk every day. And I love it. I highly recommend it. That’s my other top tip. Intermittent fasting and get a treadmill desk if you work from home.

I’ve never heard of treadmill desks. I’ve heard of standing desks, but I have not heard of treadmill desks.

Standing desks actually don’t do that much good for you because you’re just standing still. You’re just standing. I mean, it’s maybe a little better than sitting, but maybe not. Because you’re still just standing there, still. It’s not natural. It’s not natural for people to be sitting or standing in a still position for long periods of time every day. Walking is natural. So, I have a treadmill and I have a hutch that goes over the treadmill and my laptop sits on top of the hutch. I don’t do super concentrating work there. So, if I’m working on software and coding or writing, no, I have to sit down cause you need to concentrate. But for surfing, answering email, doing Facebook, the treadmill desk is perfect.

Interesting. I’m going to be imagining whenever I read one of your Facebook posts, while she was watching this, she was walking on her treadmill desk.

Very frequently.

Well, it’s been wonderful catching up with you and finding out a bit more about you. Thank you very much for sharing your time with me.

Oh, I thank you for sharing your time. It’s delightful, you’re one of my heroes and, I’ve just been squeeing inside this whole time. I love what you do, Daisy.

Thank you very much. And I look forward to that hug at Ketofest.

Me Too. Me Too.

See you soon.

See you soon.

Jennifer Kleiman – Part 2

June 14, 2019

Daisy’s latest extraordinary woman, Jennifer, carries on talking about how she reversed her Type 2 Diabetes, came off all her meds and stopped kidney disease in its tracks by switching to Keto. She has also set up a Keto candy company so that she can indulge her sweet tooth in a healthy way and allow others to do the same.

Jennifer is 48. She lives with her 3 cats, 2 dogs, 9 chickens, and 2 life partners about 10 minutes from the University of Georgia, on a beautiful piece of land with a stream, waterfalls, a quiet forest, massive gardens and a hobby orchard they’ve planted with blueberries, figs, pawpaws and pecan trees.  

Jennifer has struggled with obesity her whole life, as has her family.  Since starting keto in late 2015, she has lost 100 lbs and reversed her Type 2 Diabetes, got off all the drugs, her kidneys are back to normal and she is healthier than ever. 

Her two life partners also went keto to support her (they have been a triad for almost 20 years). Her partner Gloria, who is a famous sex therapist, has lost 25 lbs and her partner Will, who is a chef, he lost 180 lbs.  He discovered a passion for keto cooking and specifically keto candy, so last year they started a healthy low-carb candy company called Moons Grove Farms.

Jennifer also helps Karen Ogilvie with the Keto Science Alliance family of Facebook groups. They are big groups and Karen’s doing a great job promoting a science-based, evidence-backed approach to keto that makes a ton of sense.  

Jennifer believes there are healthy ways to enjoy food, without triggering unhealthy eating habits or causing bad physical issues.  She has struggled with food addiction and doesn’t want to go back to that struggle, but she does want to enjoy life (and a wide variety of food) as much as possible without being unhealthy in any way, and share what she has found with others.


Use code MGFDAISY15 at the checkout to get 15% off your goodies!

Moons Grove Farms website  

Facebook page

Jennifer’s Facebook page

Jennifer’s Top Tip

End Quote

Jennifer Kleiman

June 7, 2019

Daisy’s latest extraordinary woman, Jennifer, talks about how she reversed her Type 2 Diabetes, came off all her meds and stopped kidney disease in its tracks by switching to Keto. She has also set up a Keto candy company so that she can indulge her sweet tooth in a healthy way and allow others to do the same.

Jennifer is 48. She lives with her 3 cats, 2 dogs, 9 chickens, and 2 life partners about 10 minutes from the University of Georgia, on a beautiful piece of land with a stream, waterfalls, a quiet forest, massive gardens and a hobby orchard they’ve planted with blueberries, figs, pawpaws and pecan trees.  

Jennifer has struggled with obesity her whole life, as has her family.  Since starting keto in late 2015, she has lost 100 lbs and reversed her Type 2 Diabetes, got off all the drugs, her kidneys are back to normal and she is healthier than ever. 

Her two life partners also went keto to support her (they have been a triad for almost 20 years). Her partner Gloria, who is a famous sex therapist, has lost 25 lbs and her partner Will, who is a chef, he lost 180 lbs.  He discovered a passion for keto cooking and specifically keto candy, so last year they started a healthy low-carb candy company called Moons Grove Farms.

Jennifer also helps Karen Ogilvie with the Keto Science Alliance family of Facebook groups. They are big groups and Karen’s doing a great job promoting a science-based, evidence-backed approach to keto that makes a ton of sense.  

Jennifer believes there are healthy ways to enjoy food, without triggering unhealthy eating habits or causing bad physical issues.  She has struggled with food addiction and doesn’t want to go back to that struggle, but she does want to enjoy life (and a wide variety of food) as much as possible without being unhealthy in any way, and share what she has found with others.


Use code MGFDAISY15 at the checkout to get 15% off your goodies!

Moons Grove Farms website  

Facebook page

Jennifer’s Facebook page

End Quote

Jennifer Kleiman – Transcript

June 7, 2019

This transcript is brought to you thanks to the hard work of Dawn Michelle.

Welcome Jennifer to the Keto Woman podcast. How are you doing today?

Oh my God, I’m so excited. Just happy to be here. I love talking with you and I’m thrilled to be a guest.

And we’ve actually met a few times in person, so it’s nice to see you again.

It’s great to see you. I just wish I could give you a big hug.

Yes, we like hugs. Well it won’t be long. Because we will both be at Ketofest, won’t we?

Yay! I’m so excited about that, too.

Yeah, I know, me too. I suppose it is a ways away, it must be about six weeks away. But I know it’s going to come around really quickly.

I’d say seven, not that I’m watching the clock, but much to do, lots to prepare.

And exciting for me to be in America again. It’s become a bit of a regular thing for me these days. Having not been to America at all until last year, was the first time I’d ever set foot stateside. Yes. Becoming a bit regular now.

Your first Ketofest last year?

Yes. That was my first trip to the US of A.

Oh wow. Well, I’m very happy that it was a good experience. And, I was so psyched to meet you last year and then to be on your show this year. Oh my God. Yay.

We’ve been talking about it for a while, haven’t we? So, it’s nice to finally have you here sharing the web waves with me.

It’s been quite a year, actually, almost a full year since then. Thinking about everything that’s happened in my life and, just the world in general. It’s been crazy times.

Lots of changes. A lot has gone on in this year. So, on that subject, tell me a bit about you.

I am 48, I have two partners and I’ve started a low carb candy company, which, I founded actually after Ketofest last year. I was passing out some samples of my partner’s candy. He makes candied citrus peels and orange rinds and ginger and stuff. And I was passing out samples, last year to see what people thought. And everybody’s like, oh, that’s really good. So, I started a candy company and also of course I’ve been Keto for quite some time, about four and a half years now. I was a type two diabetic back in 2014. I got my diagnosis and it was really bad. I had a 12.1 A1c and started to have kidney disease. My eyes were messed up, you know, all the complications. I spent like a year trying to find, just trying different things, drugs, trying to eat a little better, but, you know, I didn’t know. Finally, I had a big wake-up call that it wasn’t working, I hit the Internet real hard found Keto and, saved my life.

How did you find Keto? Literally a Google search with your symptoms? How did you come across it?

Oh, actually, I went on Reddit. I was a Redditor and the diabetes sub-Reddit there is not entirely friendly to Keto and they’re mainly type one diabetes oriented. And they’re not strictly about Keto. But from there, some people are like, you should try Keto. And then the Keto sub-Reddit was all like, this is going to do it. You’ve got to do it. And they were right. In fact, I almost died. So I was very hesitant and fearful about trying Keto because the fear that you read on the Internet, so I went to my doctor at the time and I said, well you want me to keep increasing my dosage of these different medications? Do you want me to go on Lipitor? You have me taking Amerol and Glipizide and you say diabetes is a progressive disease on, I don’t want to see it progress anymore.

So I was thinking about trying this Keto diet. “Well, some people say it works, some people say it doesn’t. I don’t know. Yeah, if you try it, that’s all right.” So, he didn’t push it. He didn’t say it was good. He didn’t say it was bad. And so, I went, and I tried it and I was on all those medications. What do you think happened? Well, the first day that I cut out all the carbs and then the next morning I took the standard dosages of all those medications almost passed out. I think I did pass out briefly and when I could get to a blood sugar meter, it read 24. I had chills and I had to crawl, and I finally got to the phone and I talked to the doctor’s office and they’re like, oh yeah, that can be a complication. Just keep some candy on you. And you know, if you start to feel queasy like that just eat candy, it’s a problem with the Keto diet. Okay. I don’t think that’s the problem. I think the problem is with the medication. Well, if you want to cut back, you could go back to like maybe, you know, a half dose and see how that goes. Like how about a zero dose? So, I fired that doctor.

I mean, it’s crazy, isn’t it? That’s why people really need to get their doctor on-board. And the doctors need to be on-board in the first place or at least open to it because this is a great illustration of what can happen if you are on medication. You know, it actually shows just how effective this change of diet is that the medication ends up then having that such a dramatic response that it sends your blood sugar through the floor, you know, that’s actually a good validation of Keto, isn’t it? However, it could lead to potentially deadly consequences. So that’s why it’s so important to be able to work with your doctor. But to be able to do that, they have to have at least some kind of understanding, which you know, it sounded like originally when you spoke to your doctor that they did because they said they knew about it. They said Keto can help. It helps for some; it doesn’t help for others. So, I think you would be justified in thinking that they were okay with it and would have given you the guidance that you might need. If you had needed to be aware that this might be a problem when you started, that the medication was going to bring your blood sugar right down, it’d be something that you could have looked out for and managed and all the rest of it. Crazy.

I thought I was doing all the right things, consult your doctor, you know. And I did. And, it turned out that he wasn’t helpful at all, but I didn’t know that, he sounded helpful. I feel like a lot of people accept their doctors as authorities. They just do whatever the doctor says. They trust them and they don’t question, and that’s how I used to be. That ripped the scales from my eyes. And I found a doctor who views himself as my partner, and my health coach. He is an MD, but when he says something, he expects, and I do go research it and then decide for myself, if that makes sense. And take action on it or propose an alternate course of action, which I’ve done. And then he’ll research, and he’ll say whether he thinks that makes sense. So I’m not saying I have an MD or I’m an expert in stuff, but I’m an expert in my own health.

And I think that’s how it should be. And I think that’s more and more. That’s what seems to come back from pretty well everyone I speak to is this sense of empowerment and confidence that Keto low carb gives them, they get this understanding of how their body works because even if they just read the most basic of the science that goes with it, it all starts to make sense how their body’s working and they get it and they start to understand why they had the problems they had and how easy it can be to fix it or at least help whatever the issues are that they have. And that gives you a real sense of confidence to be able to then go to your doctor and let you say you’re not speaking to them as an equal. You’re not saying you have the qualifications they do, but you’re speaking to them on that kind of level where you’re the expert of you and you’re an intelligent person and you’re willing to put in the work. And when you do find the right person, and my doctor’s very similar, you get that kind of relationship where you work together. Rather than they’re just, like you said before, they’re just this authority figure that expects you to just do whatever they say.

The high priest of medicine, you walk in and it gives you three hail Mary’s and sends you home with a prescription for Ritalin or whatever. My current doctor, I love him and he’s a good guy and he loves me, you know, not in any sort of inappropriate way. But anyway, I’ll talk with him about Keto and diabetes and continuous glucose monitors and fasting all these health practices that have changed my life. And, he promotes them to his other patients, but he says that I am one of the few patients that actually does it and he feels like I’ve talked to him about how angry I am at the medical establishment for not effectively communicating to people that these practices are not just some sort of woowoo alternative with no health implications, but these are very powerful and that I feel like I might have wasted or suffered for years of my life that I didn’t have to because I didn’t know. And he said that as much as he has preached these practices to his other patients, very few of them actually adopt it.

Right. Interesting.

So, it’s kind of wasted time and then most of them are just there for a pill anyway.

Yes. That’s always going to be the problem, isn’t it? That, not everyone, I think you kind of have to be that certain kind of person, and it’s the kind of person that we tend to find in the Keto community, is that they’re sort of slightly rebellious, prepared to push back, interested in the science, interested in doing their own research, not bothered about going out there alone if needs be. Putting themselves first and leading the way.

Another problem here in the US is the way that medical billing is done. My doctor does not get paid for time he spends giving nutritional coaching. The insurance company will reimburse him for diagnostic codes, for prescribing, for performing procedures. And for a visit, he gets five minutes reimbursement and if he spends longer than that, he’s not getting paid by the insurance company, you know? He has to support the whole office with all the people that do the medical billing and the paperwork managing and appointments and stuff like that. So, if he’s wasting time talking to patients who aren’t going to actually take his advice, that hurts his whole practice.

Yes. Exactly. I remember Shawn Baker talking about the problem that he had with the hospital that he worked for and that was the same problem. He was wanting to give some nutritional advice and coaching and setting up weekly sort of drop in center type advice to give to patients who were coming in for these operations. The goal was for them not to have the operation in the first place. And, of course the hospital, the finance department freaked out at this and that’s where everything started to go wrong for a time. It’s sad isn’t it? That money basically is coming before health. And I know you talk about that the system in America and it’s different in the UK. But the frustration, I think a lot of us feel is that this way of eating could potentially save the health system. It can certainly save the NHS, which, you know, probably the biggest amount of money that flows out is to deal with type two diabetes or the associated problems that come with that. You start reversing all that, you suddenly freed up all this money to do all these other things. I mean, it just seems so obvious yet. Nope.

Completely obvious. And I’m living it and I’m trying to be an example and not horribly preachy to all my friends and family, but to inspire. It kills me that their doctors are not advocating for this. My whole family has obesity genes and diabetes genes and you can see it in action. Unfortunately, with my older relatives who are, you know, not all of them have diabetes, but a lot of them. And a lot of them are taking the approach that they can eat whatever they want and then just inject insulin to cover for it. Or, take a handful of pills, good to go, right? And they have more pills and more complications. We know how that goes, but the doctor isn’t pushing them. So, I don’t know if their doctor did push them. But they all say to me, “Oh, Jennifer, I admire what you’re doing. It’s inspirational. I wish I could do that.” Like you could, you could do that. You know, you say that, but you could.

It does seem nuts doesn’t it when you’ve got, so on one hand, you have this disease that’s progressive and there’s this path that you can take with it. On the other hand, and the choice is yours, there’s this different diet and lifestyle that you could adopt that could reverse your condition. It’s your choice. Which one are you going to take? This one involves medication, eat what you like, but it’s going to be progressive, which means it’s gonna keep getting worse. You’re going to have to keep taking more medication, and so on and so forth. Or, it’s going to be a bit more work. It’s going to be difficult to adjust to, but we can reverse it. Which one? It seems amazing that people still choose the progressive option.

It’s incredible. And then when they talk about, the things that they would have to give up, I’m like, but I know there are Keto options that would do that thing for you. You know, you have pasta. Awesome. Let me introduce you to zoodles or shirataki or these oat fiber konjac noodles that I love? Or instead of using pasta, imagine you had your sauce and sausage on a bed of Broccoli. Yum. Right? Okay. The rice, try cauliflower rice. There’s candy. I got a candy company. You don’t have to miss candy. And they’re like, well, maybe if I had your partner Will to cook for me. And I have to admit, having my partner Will to cook for me is pretty awesome. But now there’s so many companies out there providing even pre-packaged cauliflower pizza in the frozen pizza section or whatnot. You know, you don’t have to cook it all from scratch. Although I don’t think it’s that hard, I don’t do all my cooking either, so I might be kind of privileged there.

I do think it’s something that it’s a skill that is useful to have, but only basic cooking skills. Keeping it simple I think is the mainstay for everybody. Even people like me who like cooking and experimenting for the most part, I keep it simple because it’s just easier that way.

Any dinner that’s steak and a salad, is a good dinner for me.

Exactly. What’s not to like? Let’s go back a bit. I’d be interested to find out what led you to that place where you had your wakeup call with the 12.1 A1c? How did you get there? You’ve already mentioned that there’s genetic history there.

If you saw a picture of my family, you would see me, my brother, my mom, my dad, everybody. We all have the same build, what we call in Yiddish, zaftig. Do you know what that is? Puffy, to say the least. I believe that our genetic heritage, you know, is we’re perfectly well suited to living in the ghettos and surviving on nothing but cabbage and, and maybe, a Borscht for months at a time. I think we’re all very well adapted to a fasting for instance, but we’re not well adapted to living in plenty. So all of us, I wouldn’t say that we struggle with our weight because that would imply that we struggle. And for most of my life I was perfectly happy being a rotund Rubenesque. I was jolly and around 200-220 pounds. I don’t know what that is and your weird kilogram units, but larger than is healthy for me. And I was fine with that as long as I was healthy. I would go to the doctor and have my lipids and he’d say you should lose weight. But it wasn’t like I had any problems, so I ignored him. I like food.

But then I did start to have some problems with my vision where my vision was not a sharp is it should’ve been. And I went in for a checkup and he’s like, oh yeah, so your blood sugar is 320. I’m like, is that bad? And he’s like, yeah, you have diabetes. I’m like, are you sure? He’s like, I’m sure. You don’t need to retest? No, I don’t need to retest. So that began the year of trying to treat diabetes with drugs. And then just kept adding on and on and on. And then there was this one day where I had this series of unfortunate events. I was at an amusement park with my family. And there all of us were, the Kleiman genes all on parade. They had a new roller coaster. And I don’t know if you’ve been to an amusement park here where they have the safety harnesses and the fancy rides and the cages and restraints and stuff, but you have to be of a certain body size in order to fit within these safety harnesses.

That’s right, you have to, I can always remember, I’m not a fan of most of these rides that I can remember that from as a child with things I wanted to go on this, and minimum height requirement isn’t there? But then there’s also a maximum size, I guess.

Well, the newer rides because they are pushing the limits and so they have like special elaborate harnesses with different straps and cushioning and stuff. So, they actually have a test seat that you can try on to see if you will fit before you spend an hour waiting in line to go on the ride. And so, we walk up to the newest ride and it has, you know, your test seat. My dad looks at it and he doesn’t even try. My mom, no. My brother tries it and he just barely makes it. I try it and I just barely make it. So, we wait an hour to get on the ride and I get up there and it took three of the park attendants to force the harness closed over me and squish my fat into place. And that was so humiliating, and I could just see them kinda staring at me in contempt. I mean I’m probably imagining some of it, but I don’t think all of it. And you know, the other people on the ride, you know, they had to wait for these people to, to shove the harness in place over my guts. Well that was all pretty terrible and I don’t think I enjoyed the ride either.

Well, you’re not very likely to after that style, to be honest. It’s not going to happen.

No, not at all. Oh, there it was terrible. And then afterwards I had heard that my aunt who suffers from diabetes had an incident that morning where she lives alone, and she had fallen, and she was also very obese at the time. She couldn’t get up and she had to call the paramedics to come and it took a squad of six young men to get her to her feet. And I’m like, wow, so this is my genetics, this is my future. If I don’t do something, I’m going to be living alone and calling 911 to help me get to my feet until I die an early death of complications of various diseases. So, I had to do something. And wow, I’m so lucky I found Keto because, you know, one of the things we’ve talked about now is that people need not to be their own doctor, but at least be responsible for their own health. But it’s so hard because saying I reject the authority of the doctor. That’s a great first step. But then there are so many charlatans and so many different alternative health paths. And not to say that all of them are bad or all of them are good, but to be able to judge which is the right path now that you’re taking responsibility, now that I was taking responsibility for myself.

It is not an easy thing to say, this is real, this works. And this is a bunch of, woo-woo, it has marketing cache, and so it’s popular because it has an emotional appeal or whatever, but it doesn’t actually help. So, I, have a lot of scientific training. I was studying to be a PhD in mathematics and math education. And so, I had some training in reading research papers and evaluating both qualitative and quantitative research. I was able to find a lot of research backing the Keto diet, which helped me, but I can’t imagine that the average person trying to decide what’s the right health practice for them. They don’t have those resources. They’re probably just asking their friends, are going on the Internet and Googling and finding all kinds of other answers, which may or may not actually help. So, it’s difficult.

It’s tricky isn’t it? Because on one hand, especially with the recent dramatic rise in popularity of Keto, there is so much out there on the Internet and it’s all completely free. That’s one of the things I like about Keto is that it is accessible to everyone for free. You know, I mean, it hasn’t cost me anything to learn how to eat this way and I know it can do. And I know there are multiple businesses building up around it now and around the popularity of it. Businesses like yours that we’re going to talk about in a minute that are selling products to eat. There are coaching programs like the one I endorse, Kim Howerton and Carrie Brown’s program, which is fantastic. And there are all these things that you can pay money to learn about Keto if you want to, but you can also access it all for free. And that’s what I like about it is universally accessible for absolutely anyone completely for free. But there’s also the other side of that there is so much information out there, it can be really confusing to figure out which is the best path for you.

You know, Daisy, I think we kind of live in a very happy bubble actually because I think I’ve met people who have approached Keto from a less informed and less free, point of view. But where they got introduced to Keto through, for instance, Pruvit marketers or through their chiropractor who has a bunch of products, various powders and MCT oils and exogenous ketones. From that approach, it’s not a free diet, but to this approach, it’s more of a sort of a magical process of taking different potions that will make you better. And you know, the marketing hype around these things is intense.

Yes, that’s a very good point actually. And I kind of had completely forgotten about that because it’s, it’s so much something that I stay away from. I forget what a big industry it is, and of course it really does appeal to those people, that group of people that you were talking about before where your doctor was saying, he wished all his patients who Keto would have worked for, would adopt it. But it is those kinds of people who like to take a pill that are already susceptible to the exogenous ketone marketers.

One extreme or the other. You get the pill from your doctor. The people that will not venture out from their doctor’s protection and they are just going to take the pill and they don’t want to consider anything else because the doctor hasn’t said to do it. And then there’s the people who have thrown the shackles of the doctor off. But they are not scientific in their approach. So the first, and the most bloviated marketing claims out there, they’re like, well, this stuff, this is amazing, and it says, and it has these endorsements by these beautiful looking people, and, it costs a lot of money, so it’s gotta be good. Those people, you know, it’s hard to kind of separate out the facts from the fiction when you have to start evaluating these health claims that they’ve been caught in. I went to the Nourished Festival for gluten-free products, which our candy is gluten-free. And while I was there, there were several other, Keto people at this conference, including the Pruvit booth, and the Pruvit marketers. They were very enthusiastic about their product and they sounded very sincere about it. And, I hope that if they are listening that they’re not going to be offended, but their product is just completely unnecessary unless you happen to be a high-performance athlete. I don’t know. I don’t think so. I mean, obviously most high-performance athletes don’t take exaggerates ketones. So, I don’t think it’s a necessary product even for them, but certainly not for people who are just trying to lose weight.

Well, in actual fact, it goes the other way. That can actually be counterproductive if you’re trying to lose weight.

Oh, I was talking with someone actually literally yesterday about this. She said she was doing a little fast because she wanted to get her body back in a higher state of operation and she was measuring her ketones and she was 36 hours into the fast. So, she said, I took some exotic as ketones to really boost my ketones and really get deeper into the fast. I’m like, okay, you just actually completely tanked your fast because your body was producing the ketones and that means your body was taking its stored fat reserves and converting it to energy, and now you just took a whole shot of extra energy. And so, your body’s like, wow, well I got extra energy, I don’t need to produce any more ketones.

It’s actually, you just fed me, thanks, fast over.

She’s like, oh, actually that makes a ton of sense. But the Pruvit people aren’t going to say that. Sorry, Pruvit people. All right now they hate me. That’s just the mechanics of it. And you know, I understand the average consumer is not going to get deep into the science and so they’re just going to believe marketing claims.

That’s right. And it is, when you look at the science behind it and you start. I have a very logical brain and I have to understand how something works before I can buy into it. And when you start picking these claims apart is when you start realizing there’s something dodgy going on. And it’s not to say that there aren’t potential really useful applications for exogenous ketones. I’ve recommended them to my uncle, for example, who has early onset Alzheimer’s, perfect candidate for exogenous ketones in my opinion. And there are others. But if weight loss is your goal, stay away from them. Save your money, spend it on steak and bacon.

The interesting thing about the marketing and health auras and taking an emotional approach to health. I think it is the intuitive way that most of us operate and some of us are more rational. I’m not saying rational is better, but because rational can get trapped too. We can make things over-complicated and we can get stuck trying to evaluate different courses of action and fail to take any action. Sometimes we have to rely on our feelings. But often our feelings will lead us to the flashy over marketed solutions that seem emotionally appealing but are not the right ones.

Difficult balance to try and figure out. Tell me about, you obviously adopted this way of eating and for some people and I’m not sure how I would cope in that situation. I live on my own so I can do what I want in my house and have what foods I like in the house and all the rest of it. I’m not sure if I could cope if I lived with someone who was a carb eater. I’m not sure how I’d deal with that. I know people find a way, but you are quite lucky, I think. You managed to get your team on-board and they found their own benefits from it. Is that right?

Well, not right away. My partner Will, did start cooking Keto for me right away because he was very supportive and is very supportive. But my partner Gloria, she, while being emotionally supportive, she loved her carbs and it was actually a big sacrifice for Will. He was cooking Keto for me, but he was still having carbs himself. And he was going through a phase at the time where he was perfecting his artisan bread skills. And let me tell you, I think he caused my diabetes. I’m sorry, Will. Will, you, there? You caused my diabetes. He just would pull this perfectly amazing loaf of sourdough out of the oven and offer me a hot slice of this crusty, amazing smelling bread with butter. Oh, just thinking about it. I mean, there is no Keto equivalent, unfortunately.

That’s impossible to resist, isn’t it? I do understand that. That’s where I was saying, if I had that in front of me, I’m not sure how I’d cope.

And oh, he’s making these pretzels and bagels and he was just really getting into it. Fortunately, he stopped making those and he would still make fried potatoes or whatnot for him and Gloria. But I could resist those, under the threat of looming death. Death is a great motivator and, avoiding death. Once it became apparent to me that eating carbs and paying attention to my blood sugar, it was very apparent. You know, even the supposedly to heart-healthy oatmeal that my first doctor had advocated would spike my blood sugar and there it would be up the 200-300 range again.

It’s a very good way actually, isn’t it? Bringing things like that home. It’s one of the reasons why I say that it is useful to get a meter just to do that, to test different foods cause I’ve done the same thing. I had the exact same result with oatmeal. I used to love the steel cut oats. You know, these are super healthy, and I used to eat all the time. I can remember having a conversation with my sister who also used to like having oatmeal for breakfast and she used to say, the thing is, you know you have this thing that’s supposed to be really good for you and is supposed to be really filling, but I just tend to feel sleepy and I’m really hungry mid-morning after having it. Of course, now we know exactly why that is, it’s because of the massive spike and then slumping in blood sugar.

I’ve been surprised by a number of foods, and butternut squash. I made some soup with it and as soon as I tasted it, it tasted so sweet. So, I thought, right, I’m going to test my blood sugar response to this. And it went even higher than oatmeal. So that’s where it’s just really worth testing different things, especially if they are your favorite things. And then you have this black and white data in front of you. You can’t argue with that. You can’t argue and potentially play down how you felt, which is really easy to do when it’s balanced with something that you’re really craving. You can really play down those other things. But when you’ve got that data, black and white in front of you, that’s shown you exactly what’s happened to your blood sugar and you combine that with how you feel and then it makes it a little bit easier to balance those scales in the right direction I think.

Absolutely, having that feedback loop is the only way I think that people learn to change their behavior. You know, just somebody telling you, oh, you shouldn’t do that. Well, okay, yeah, probably they’re right. But, being able to experiment and do something and see the results of that, is so powerful. So, I’ve been wearing a continuous glucose monitor (CGM).

I would love to try out those.

For about a year and a half now, ever since they became available for type two diabetics. Not that I take any drugs or anything. So, my doctor’s like, well, you know, if you want it, I’ll prescribe it for ya. Cause he’s my health partner. But he’s like, I don’t know why you need it. You know, it’s not going to tell you any information. Like you need drugs, cause you don’t. I’m like, it’s going to tell me stuff. And it really has. It’s fascinating to see how different foods react. And even though I’ve pretty much cured my insulin resistance at this point, and I have experimented by having a carb meal or a piece of chocolate made with real sugar. I can see it spike and then I can see it go down again. And that makes me so happy to see because wow, you know, back when I was still fighting the insulin resistance, I would go up and it would stay up.

That’s the problem, isn’t it? Has anything surprised you? So, you’ve obviously had this data for a long period of time. Have there been things in there that you would never have expected to either spike it high or maybe drop it low, and not even necessarily food? I know some people react to things like coffee. Or have you seen maybe things like stress or sleep impacting it? I mean that’s where it must be so fascinating. Just having that continuous, being able to monitor it all the time. You can see the results of so many different things.

It’s really has provided a level of insight into my metabolism that I had zero insight, or a very tiny insight into before. One thing that I can say that is hugely important to understand is that when you’re using a little blood glucose meter where you do the finger prick, you are getting one readout, one tiny piece of information. And compare it to a continuous glucose monitor. It’s like you’re looking into a room, a dark room, completely dark room and you flick the light switch for a second compared to just turning the light on.

Yeah. So much you can miss.

Huge. So, when people say like, Oh, I’m going to test my reaction to coffee. I’m going to take a read out before and a read out after. My experience with the continuous glucose monitor, it tells me that a hundred percent, those two readings are basically meaningless because there’s a natural fluctuation. There’s other stuff going on depending on the time of day, your circadian rhythm, heat, stress, sleep, other foods you might’ve eaten in the past 12 or even 36 hours. And just your general state of health too. So, depending on your body’s general state. Like I can see where my body is in a general, like kind of unstressed, very relaxed, healthy state for a couple of weeks at a time. And then I can see my baseline blood glucose is in the 80s. But then I can absolutely see where maybe my sleep isn’t as good because I’ve been traveling, or work stress is going on. And then my baseline glucose is going to be 90s or even up around 100. And my reaction to foods is different. No, somebody can’t just do like, I’m going to see how I react to coffee and take two readings. That’s not going to tell you anything. Or people say, I tested my reaction to this sweetener allulose and I did this thing and I took two readings and now I know it spiked me 15 points. That’s just noise. For one thing, those little, readers have a variation of 10 to 15 points anyway. Even if you took two readings in quick succession using the same finger, even the same drop of blood, you get variation and then to think that you’re going to learn something.

Yeah, you can still learn something. I mean, I know whenever I test foods, I do the baseline before I start and then I’ll do three afterwards. I tend to do one at 30 minutes, one at 60 and one at 90 or two hours, I think I do. It’s going to tell you something. It’s going to show you that general trajectory. But, but yes, what I’m fascinated about is to see all those nuances and particularly the impact of things like stress and sleep because everyone always looks directly at the food. It’s a common thing, isn’t it? When people are stalled, when they’re having problems with losing weight and it’s always about the food and they can be saying things like, I’m doing everything right and I don’t understand why am I not losing weight or why have I gained weight this week? And, and it’s only when you look at all the other things that really can have a dramatic effect. So it’s interesting that you say that you have seen that, you have seen the impact that it has on your blood sugar so that we can then infer from that that it’s going to have an impact on say, weight loss, if that was what you were tracking from something like stress or lack of sleep.

I think so. I think it’s the causal chain based on all the science that I understand is you’ll have generally raised cortisol levels and that increases your insulin resistance and your general insulin levels, which will lock the fat within your fat cells so you’ll feel less energetic overall and not burn as much energy and have less access to your fat stores and, you know, the whole cascade. So, I think it is clear that stress and lack of sleep has a huge impact.

So is there anything that surprised you during the time you’ve been monitoring? Is there anything that you wouldn’t have expected to impact the way it has that you’ve seen pop up on those charts?

One thing I would say is that if you are exposed to heat at all, don’t take blood sugar readings and expect to get something meaningful, Because if you get in a hot bath or a sauna or something like that, your blood sugar is going to shoot up like 50-60 points. I think it’s universal. I’ve read that, everyone has this response, but nobody knows about it. So, you go sunbathing or something like that, your body gets hot, it’s gonna release blood glucose, and then once you get cool again drops right back. But to see the magnitude of these swings, you wouldn’t expect it. Also exercise. Exercise is very, very interesting. If you just think like, well I’m going to exercise and so my muscles are going to burn glucose and my glucose is going to drop. Yeah. Not really. Yes, in the total energy sense because you obviously are burning energy and so the energy has to come from somewhere, but your body also responds to stress by releasing glycogen, so your muscles have more energy to burn and it’s always a moving target.

So, your body’s going to release depending on the, the stimuli you get like a really intense lifting session. I go out there and I’m really giving it my all, my body’s going to respond by releasing a ton of glycogen, blood glucose, so I have that energy. Because it’s like, well, you’re doing something seriously intense, I’m going to give you a ton of energy. So, you’ll actually see on the CGM a spike. And then because generally lifting is not a sustained exercise, then you know, maybe you don’t burn that right off. So, you see the spike and it’s not exactly a a crash right away, but a sustained exercise that is intense. Like, sometimes I’ll hit the treadmill as hard as I can and then I kind of oscillate. So, I’m releasing, burning, releasing, burning. And these swings are pretty large until you see it.

And I think once everybody has CGMs accessible to them, like as part of the Apple Watch or fitbit or something like that, I think people are going to be responding to these by maybe structuring their workouts so that they, you know, that you can have a glycogen workout. Where your aim is to exhaust your glycogen. Or maybe you don’t want to exhaust your glycogen because you’re prepping for a race the next day or something like that. But you’ll be able to finely tune what you’re doing with your body and see how your body’s responding to the stress.

Wow. That’s fascinating. It makes me want to try it. I’d be looking at it, I’d be like testing everything. I did see what impact it had.


Oh yes, that spike was such and such.

I also wear an Oura ring. So, I can measure how my sleep, you know, it gives you sleep scores and stress level scores and stuff like that. So, I can also see and correlate. And it absolutely does correlate with what I see on the CGM in terms of general stress levels.

Ah, interesting. So, another thing I’d like to see, but then I’d also probably be a little bit dismayed by the results I’m going to sleep with. My sleep is less than perfect.

Well, it gives you the tools to measure, you know, how your sleep is, and then you try different things to experiment to improve your sleep.

That’s true. Actually. And that goes back to what we were saying before. It’s hard to deny what’s going on if you’ve got the data in front of you.

Exactly. It’s important to measure. Measure, and then respond.

Jackie Fletcher

May 31, 2019

Daisy’s latest extraordinary woman, Jackie, talks about how keto makes her feel so amazing that she is doing things she never thought possible and is even changing her career to share her passion.

Jackie, 55, is married with 16 year old twins. Jackie lives in Essex, England near the border of north east London.

Having always felt overweight she starting dieting in her early teens, trying many different diet over many years. She now understands that insulin resistance was probably part of the reason she had a massive ovarian tumour, which was removed along with one and a half ovaries when she was 17. Then going on to suffer with debilitating migraines and later on gallbladder attacks.

Believing diets don’t work and the only way to lose weight is eat less, move more she felt a failure. Believing it was all her fault she couldn’t lose weight or do exercise.

By February 2016 she weighed 208lbs and through stress, not sleeping much and working a 12 hour night shift every week, her weight went up and up to 231lbs by May 17.

Through firstly low carb and then a ketogenic diet and intermittent fasting she has so far lost 53lbs.

She has also started exercising and won a bronze medal in TaeKwonDo sparring.

Jackie is passionate about the ketogenic way of eating and wants to empower others to take back control of their eating, weight and health.

Jackie is currently training to be a Functional Diagnostic Nutrition Practitioner.

Jackie is launching Fabulously Keto, aimed at over 40s who want help with coaching for their keto lifestyle. In September 2019 she is launching a new podcast also called Fabulously Keto.

And the peacocks? Beautiful but noisy!



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Heal Your Headache by David Buchholz

The Miracle Morning by Hal Elrod

Stress Less, Accomplish More by Emily Fletcher

Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes

Keto Clarity by Jimmy Moore

Jackie’s Top Tip

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